Chris Dixon

Is it a tech bubble?

Every week a “we are in a tech bubble” article seems to come out in a major newspaper or blog. People who argue we aren’t in a bubble are casually dismissed as promoting their own interests. I’d argue the situation is far more nuanced and that people who engage in this debate should consider the following:

1) Public tech companies: Anyone with a basic understanding of finance would have trouble arguing many large public tech companies are trading at “bubble valuations” – e.g. Apple (14 P/E), Google (18 P/E), eBay (16 P/E), Yahoo (17 P/E). You could certainly debate other public tech stock valuations (there are a number of companies that recently IPOd that many reasonable people think are overvalued), but on a market-cap weighted average the tech sector is trading at a very reasonable 17 P/E.

2) Instagram seems to be the case study du jour for people arguing we are in a bubble. Reasonable people could disagree about Instagram’s exit price but in order to argue the price was too high you need to argue that either: 1) Facebook is overvalued at its expected IPO valuation of roughly $100B, 2) it was irrational for Facebook to spend 1% of its market cap to own what many people considered one of Facebook’s biggest threats (including Mark Zuckerberg – who I tend to think knows what is good for Facebook better than pundits).

3) Certain stages of venture valuations do seem on average over-valued, in particular seed-stage valuations and (less obviously) later-stage “momentum valuations.” The high seed-stage valuations are driven by an influx of angel/seed investors (successful entrepreneurs/tech company employees, VC’s with seed funds, non-tech people who are chasing trends). The momentum-stage valuations are driven by a variety of things, including VC’s who want to be associated with marquee startup names, the desire to catch the next Facebook before it gets too big, and the desire of mega-sized VC funds to “put more money to work”.

4) Certain stages – most notably the Series A – seem under valued. Many good companies are having trouble raising Series As and the valuations I’ve seen for the ones who do have been pretty reasonable. Unfortunately, since the financials and valuations of these companies aren’t disclosed, it is very difficult to have a public debate on this topic. But many investors I know are moving from seed to Series A precisely because they agree with this claim.

5) No one can predict macro trends. The bear case includes: something bad happens to the economy (Euro collapses, US enters double dip recession). The warning sign here will be a drop in profits by marquee tech companies.  The bull case includes: economy is ok or improves, and tech continues to eat into other industries (the “software is eating the world” argument). Anyone who claims to know what will happen over the next 3 years at the macro level is blowing hot air. That’s why smart investors continue investing at a regular pace through ups and downs.

6) The argument that sometimes startups get better valuations without revenue is somewhat true. As Josh Koppelman said “There’s nothing like numbers to screw up a good story.” This is driven by the psychology of venture investors who are sometimes able to justify a higher price to “buy the dream” than the same price to “buy the numbers.” This doesn’t mean the investors think they will invest and then get some greater fool to invest in the company again. For instance, at the seed stage, intelligent investors are quite aware that they are buying the dream but will need to have numbers to raise a Series A.

7) No good venture investors invest in companies with the primary strategy being to flip them. This isn’t because they are altruistic – it is because it is a bad strategy. You are much better off investing in companies that have a good chance to build a big business. This creates many more options including the option to sell the company. Acquisitions depend heavily on the whims of acquirers and no good venture investors bet on that.

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  • http://www.ben-evans.com Benedict Evans

    12 years ago I worked on a ‘hot’ tech IPO in which a sovereign wealth fund submitted orders for 4X the entire free float. 

    That’s what a bubble looks like. 

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  • http://matthewlmcclure.com/ Matt McClure

    What are typical P/E ratios at each of the earlier stages — seed, series A, series B, etc.?

    Or if there are better rules of thumb than P/E for earlier stage companies without enough revenue data, what other rules of thumb apply?

    • http://www.cdixon.org/ chris dixon

      At seed there are no numbers.

      At Series A and B, companies are often valued on revenues and profits are just projected.

      • http://matthewlmcclure.com/ Matt McClure

        When there is revenue as a data point, do you use a multiple on revenue as a valuation rule of thumb?

  • Chris J. Tow

    Chris, a question I’d like you to address is how a start-up technology company will become a sustainable business? Will advertising dollars, data from users, and becoming apart of our “social fabric” (our usage of the product) support products that are free?

    I would cite this as a concern if VC’s no longer support the growing number of “start-ups” that do not evolve into sustainable businesses.

    • http://www.cdixon.org/ chris dixon

      The majority of tech companies charge customers and are not ad based. Eg basically all b2b companies charge customers. These businesses, for some reason, just get far less attention.

      • http://www.justanentrepreneur.com Philip Sugar

        When you are b2b its much harder to sell a dream.  You have to sell the numbers, and that’s much harder.

        If there is a bubble where it will be an issue is when you have to sell the numbers. 

        $5M pre is relatively easy with no numbers. 

        $20M pre is doable with little numbers and showing traction.

        $50M pre is hard to do when you have 5 years of numbers to show and they look flat.

      • http://matthewlmcclure.com/ Matt McClure

        Ad supported businesses charge customers too. But the customer isn’t the same as the user. In a sense, the user is the product and the customer is an advertiser.

  • Riley Dallas

    I respectfully disagree. We’re definitely in a bubble. Consider the following startups that have recently IPO’ed, representing the “cream of the crop”:

    Groupon – Negative Profits
    Zynga – Negative Profits
    Tesla – Negative Profits
    Angie’s List – Negative Profits
    Pandora – Negative Profits
    BazaarVoice – Negative Profits
    LinkedIn – Trading at 850x earnings

    With the JOBS act lowering regulations on financial accountability, it’s only going to get worse (think NINA loans from the housing bubble).

    • http://www.cdixon.org/ chris dixon

      I don’t think that’s the cream of the crop. Also some of those (eg zynga) are cash flow positive I believe.

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  • http://www.twitter.com/stevenkane Steven Kane

    the word “bubble” makes everyone crazy so maybe we should just put it on a shelf.

    in any case, as to whether or not we are now in some sort of grossly distorted marketplace, is history any guide? 

    i had a decent ringside seat at the tech, er, irrational exuberance, of 1998-2000, and i can not recall anyone on the inside — bankers, venture investors, entrepreneurs — saying it was a “bubble.”

    that only happened well after the tech meltdown of 2000-2001, when it was obvious that valuations had got silly.

    my point is, i don’t think we can rely on our own insular perceptions as a guide?

    famous joke:

    two young fish are swimming along. an older fish comes swimming by, and as he passes the two young fish, the older fish remarks, “nice water today.” a moment later, when the older fish had passed, the young fish look at each other quizzically. one asks, “what’s water?”

    • http://www.cdixon.org/ chris dixon

      Just because insider don’t think it’s a bubble doesn’t mean it’s a bubble.

      • http://www.twitter.com/stevenkane Steven Kane

        true! but my point is, just because insider don’t think it’s a bubble doesn’t mean it’s not a bubble

        • http://www.cdixon.org/ chris dixon

          true, that’s why I presented arguments. saying they are invalid because of who I am is ad hominem

          • http://www.twitter.com/stevenkane Steven Kane

            sorry – not personal, not meant ad hominem. just offering that its sometimes hard for insiders (you, me, anyone) to see outside their immediate realms…

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  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=500052192 Roger McNamee

    Dear Chris – the bubble i can see is in seed stage venture, where spray and pray has re-emerged as a legitimate strategy.

  • Anonymous

    The real risk here is not a bubble in the tech space, but a broader macro disruption, that will bring it all down.   The global economy is still in a very fragile place, and it won’t take much to bring fear back into this market.  Even Zynga with good cash flow, is loosing 1.30 per share.  Groupon is already failing, Yelp is not making a profit.  Weather we are in a bubble or not does not change the fact that business cycles exist and we most likely in the latter half in the high tech web space. 

    • http://www.cdixon.org/ chris dixon

      I agree.

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  • Anonymous

    The one company you didn’t mention is amazon.com — I admire amazon for its innovation and long-term thinking. But, it is growing its top line at very high cost. It’s trading at 169 P/E ratio. As much as I respect and like amazon as a company, I don’t see how we can justify 169 P/E ration. It’s one of the biggest bubble in high tech.

    • http://www.cdixon.org/ chris dixon

      I don’t disagree some tech companies are overvalued (some are probably undervalued though too).

  • http://twitter.com/cbtacy Chris Tacy

    I would argue this is a prototypical “boom” (rather than a bubble) in that we actually have seen changes in the underlying fundamentals (rather than just irrational speculation). That’s not to say that a bubble might not be *coming*, but given the changes in the capital requirements of start-ups (particularly very early stage ones), I think this a classic boom – and fwiw also feel that the changes fundamentals also explain the “Series A problem” that people write about as well as the perceived “overvaluation” of seed rounds.

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  • http://twitter.com/carlostobin Carlos Tobin

    One explanation, is that people  are unaware of the revenue these companies are generating. They read about the Valuations, but not the price. 

    For instance, in hindsight, except for Microsoft’s strategic investment, the secondary market trades, and the seed round, FB  never traded above 17x revenue. 

    Facebook (2004) 166x Seed.   1st ads in May booked  ~$2,400 revenue. In June, Thiel invests at $5M valuation  

    Facebook (2005) 17x  A. $6M revenue               $100m valuation 
    Facebook (2006)  10x B. $52M run rate on $525 pre 
    Facebook (2007) 100x C. $150M revenue at $15B valuation Facebook (2009) 13x  D. ($750M revenue at $10B valuationFacebook (2010) 17x  E. ($2b revenue at $35B valuation)Facebook: (2011) 30x  F   ($3.3B run rate on a $100B valuation)Facebook (2012) 23x IPO   $4.2B revenue on $100B IPO valuation)

    Maybe in the future, companies should stop reporting 
    to Tech Crunch  ”valuations” and amount raised, and just report Revenue multiples.

    • http://www.cdixon.org/ chris dixon

      Nice job bringing actual data to a finance discussion (seriously). To add to your point: many of those were preferred shares (lowering the effective multiple), and strategic investments are typically above market price because the strategic investor is paying for relationship in addition to shares.

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  • Anonymous
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  • http://twitter.com/excapite Nigel Scott

    I enjoyed reading through this vigourous discussion however I would just like to point out that if you map growth in US GDP over the past 20 years against the level of VC investment on a year on year basis then you will discover that (somewhat suprisingly I would suggest for most readers of tech blogs) the level of VC investment is a lag indicator rather than a lead indicator of US economic growth. In this context the confusion over bubble or no bubble merely reflects what the big economic data has been telling us since 2007. i.e. The situation is complex and even the most experience financial investor is struggling to make sense of the economic chaos arising from the collapse of the US housing market.

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  • http://www.getacho.com Samee Ullah Feroz

    Great post chris I am agree with your article. it is bubble emulation.
    my last post on  : Promo Codes

  • http://twitter.com/S_Dwy Sam Achilles Dwyer

    Chris, I won’t argue the tech bubble/non-tech bubble aspect. I, too, feel that argument on the topic should remain numerical — everything else is hypothetical/opinion/speculation. None of which will get you very far when debating finance.I’d love your take on a finance-focused points from a recent article by Josh Shinai of MarketWatch (linked below) on Facebook’s value:1. In the last four quarters, beginning with the second quarter of 2011, the company has posted year-over-year revenue growth of 107%, 104%, 55% and 45%, respectively. Those are total revenue figures. The figures for ad revenue, meanwhile, paint a similar picture, with corresponding growth rates of 83%, 44%, 44% (again) and 37%.Posting 45% top-line growth sounds impressive when you consider that Facebook is now generating more than $1 billion in quarterly revenue. Still, investors shouldn’t ignore the obvious trend: The year-over-year revenue growth in the first quarter was less than half of what it was just nine months earlier.2. Facebook’s results over the last two years show a consistent pattern: Advertising revenue surges in the second and fourth quarters, respectively, yet slows or even weakens in the first and third calendar periods. [Me: Hence the sequential dip in quarterly revenue and a year-over-year drop in net income the company announced recently]3. In its latest filing, the company pegged the value of its stock price, as of Jan. 31, at $30.89 a share for internal accounting purposes.
    Because Facebook earned fully diluted net income (applicable to common shareholders) of 46 cents a share in 2011, that valuation equates to a price-to-earnings ratio of 67 times trailing-year earnings.
    By comparison, Google Inc. — which many consider to be Facebook’s biggest rival, and which last year posted revenue growth of 29% and net income growth of 14% — ended Wednesday’s trading valued at 20.5 times trailing-year earnings.
    To justify its much-higher P/E, Facebook needs to be posting and forecasting better growth numbers than that.http://www.marketwatch.com/story/facebook-sales-growth-is-lumpy-and-slowing-2012-04-26
    05/01/12 – 5:43 pm

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  • http://twitter.com/DrMJG_7 Dr. MJG

    I think internet companies today compared to the dotcom years are financially in a much more solid state because at least most of them generate large top-line revenue. Regarding the negative profits, I think all these companies intentionally trade-off profits for growth because investors place a higher premium on growth than profit.

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